“I don’t really think there was a secret ingredient other than people being able to move past their doubts and seize an opportunity. It was a chance to create opportunities where the rewards outweighed the risks. I don’t think we do that much in public education…”
“You need to build systems…to demonstrate that teachers, by and large, succeed in their work.”
“I think that we, as unions and teachers, have felt so victimized by accountability that we have almost betrayed our own mission as a profession.”
Brad Jupp, Education Sector Interview in April 2006
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Brad is a very laid back guy. And that’s particularly impressive when you consider his current position as the Senior Program Advisor for Teacher Quality Initiatives in the U.S. Department of Education. This is an individual who has the ear of Secretary of Education Arne Duncan and has considerable, if not central, influence on any federal policies that relate to teacher quality and effectiveness.

U.S. Department of Education Senior Advisor Brad Jupp
As a former middle school English teacher and union activist in the Denver public schools, he is most known for his role in the development of Denver’s ProComp teacher compensation system—one which ties teacher incentives to both school and student performance and growth.
I met Brad through the Teaching Ambassador Program, a teaching fellowship designed to orient and involve teachers in national, state and local education policy. A total of four BPS teachers, incidentally, have been a part of, or currently participate, in this program, including Steven Berbeco from Charlestown High School, Shakera Walker from Young Achievers Science and Math School and Robert Baroz from the Curley School. Applications for the 2012-2013 cohort have recently opened so definitely take a look and pass on the word.
He was generous enough to spend nearly an hour with me this past November while attending the Council of the Great City Schools conference in Boston. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, especially as it related to one of the core questions of The Teaching Pulse: What local, statewide and national policy initiatives should we teachers be aware of, and what are practical ways and avenues to influence and implement those policies?’
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Thanks, Brad, for taking the time to meet and talk with me this morning. It’s an incredible privilege. One key goal of this interview is to emphasize the idea that [education] policy is important, policy affects us and at times, we can actually shape it.
How would you best describe your role in the U.S. Department of Education and what you do?
I comprehend it first by its breathtaking scale. I was always overwhelmed in Denver by how many teachers I represented when I was a union leader and how many teachers worked for us when I was in the superintendent’s office. [And] I knew most of them.
In the Department of Education, what I think is amazing is [to consider] this huge river of 3.3 million people. The teaching workforce is enormous. And it works under incredibly decentralized circumstances. You can’t say that the teacher who works in New Jersey works under the same circumstances as the one who teaches in California. But you also can’t say that the teacher who works in Los Angeles works under the same circumstances as the teacher who works in Sacramento. And so it’s not just a problem of enormity, it’s a problem of complexity.
Size and decentralization makes for enormity and complexity. [It’s] been a real challenge to learn the best ways to shape the directions that the people who make up this river of people flow in. There’s a current [in this river, for instance] where 30% of the people who have been hired have left the job within two or three years after they were hired. You should ask: ‘What’s causing that current’?’ Then you should ask, ‘what can be done to alter that current?’ And in something that’s enormous and something that’s complicated, it’s not going to be a simple, single gesture.
So I think the short end of this long introduction is that learning how to make the right precise moves to change the trajectory of the teaching profession has been the greatest challenge of the job that I’ve been in for the past two and a half years. It’s not been easy.
[It seems] like a tremendous role and responsibility, to not only identify and understand what the currents are, but to also try and establish interventions, policies or even [think them through]…
Very often what people do wrong is [when] they come in with a political orientation and some policy preferences. And they impose them. I think the case that I was making is that you actually have to learn how these currents move before you do that, before you can alter them effectively.
I’m making the case for knowing how this workforce moves rather than knowing the right sets of policy interventions.
So you’re thinking of yourself more as a gatherer of information, understanding how it works…
Maybe the right word for it, James, and I know it might not be good interview material because it’s too abstract… I’m a pragmatist. I work with the materials and conditions that I got. I’m not an idealist. I don’t work backwards from a set of perfect ideas that I think need to be imposed on this incredibly complex and decentralized workforce.
Nice… well, to bring it back to the day-to-day, because you have this experience, how has being a teacher yourself and an accomplished unionist affected how you do your work now?
So, I think the teacher weighs much more heavily than the union background. To be a good teacher I had to be constantly ask, ‘What do kids know, how is their knowledge changing, and what evidence am I using to feel confident that their knowledge is changing the way I hope it will?’ I use that way of thinking in every aspect of my work, whether I’m working with the state leader, union leader, school teachers, [or] a governor. ‘What do they know?’ Then I ask, ‘how do I know that what they know is changing and what evidence am I going to use?’ I apply that way of thinking with everybody.
I think what I bring from my background as a union leader, first and foremost, is the sentiment that working people want first and foremost, good, fruitful jobs; not the political struggle that they often find themselves in. And then second, I bring a really three-dimensional understanding of the psychology that [often] occurs in the relationship between unions and school districts, [and between] unions and state legislatures… Frankly, I’ve been on all sides of the table. And I have an insight into what’s in people’s heads on all sides of the table at this point. And that’s because [like I mentioned earlier], I pay attention to [connecting evidence to shifts in understanding with] whomever I’m working. Over the years, [I’ve gathered] an experience base in thinking like a leader of a local, of thinking like a leader of a state affiliate, or thinking like a superintendent or thinking like a governor’s education policy aide.
So the union experience is double. I understand the aspirations of the people that unions represent and I also understand the motivations and sentiments of people who represent large numbers of teachers.
I love the word ‘attentiveness’ because I think that cognitively, that’s really complex. Especially when you come in with your ideas or you may be influenced, as we all are, by a political background, or way of looking at the work, or personal experiences that affect how we do our work. To be attentive doesn’t mean you disregard it, but you almost categorize it in your head a certain way so that you’re looking at things fairly and really listening to all the different perspectives.
You can never disabuse yourself of your own biases but you can always take into account someone else’s as you try to create progress.
That’s a nice one… (laughing)
So one of the goals of this column is to [emphasize] that education policy is something that is important for teachers to understand. So from your perspective and position in the Department of Education, what are the most important policy initiatives that teachers should be aware of right now? In particular, which ones directly impact us in our classrooms?
I think the most important policy initiative is actually a bundle of different initiatives that are associated with college and career ready standards. I’ve been in the classroom or in jobs that have been close to the classroom for twenty-five years and in the course of those years, I’ve seen three to four sets of standards wash up on the beach of my classroom. And they didn’t really affect what I did much, although the last set that washed up in the form of accountability initiatives that preceded NCLB in Colorado did affect the way my school was organized because we started to care a lot more about whether kids were proficient or not and we began to pay a lot more attention to kids on the cusp of proficiency. Because the numbers made us pay attention to them. We didn’t know if it was the right thing or the wrong thing; I think it was probably somewhere in the middle, but until there [were] external circumstances asking us to pay attention to proficiency rates, the standards were largely aesthetic. They were binders with suggested student content that we were supposed to apply as English teachers if our kids were to be on track.
So would you say that there wasn’t oversight there?
Until there was external accountability at the state level, there were not powerful, coercive forces to make us pay attention to the standards, so we didn’t. We did what we wanted. Now I’m not for powerful and coercive standards, I’m for recognizing that before the accountability movement, there was not a lot of attention to what the state standards were or what the district standards were, at least in [the] Denver Public Schools. And with that, there was not much attention [paid] to whether or not kids were succeeding on the standards.
To this end, I think that the powerful thing about College and Career Ready Standards comes in two steps. The first step is if we as a profession are going to get serious, we’re not going to be coerced into owning the outcomes of these standards, but we’re going to adopt them because they’re the right, good thing. And the second is, if we’re going to be serious about those standards, and serious about the fact that they’re supposed to get all kids to college and career readiness, we’re going to be serious about the fact that the work that we have to do in order to attain those standards is different than the work we’re doing now. And I contend, because I’ve studied them as an English teacher, the language arts expectations under College and Career Ready Standards are as good as my expectations when I entered the field in the 1980s… and very, very difficult to execute in the classroom.
When we as a profession embrace these [new standards], we’re embracing them because they’re the right thing for the kids to do, but we’re also embracing them as hard work. And we’re going to need to honest with ourselves that they will challenge us, me, and my colleagues to do new and sometimes more difficult things.
I’m convinced that just as College and Career Ready standards are really important, I’m also convinced that a lot of the debate around teacher effectiveness, a lot of the debate around teacher capital management, is actually small fry compared to this big fish.
So it’s about the Common Core [the adopted College and Career Ready Standards framework].
The Common Core is something that the profession, if it chooses to own it, and chooses to own it as thoroughly as I just described it, will actually just swamp all of the little squeaky arguments of ‘this measure of teacher performance’ or ‘that human capital management decision to give somebody a raise or to advance someone to new rung on a career ladder…’
So the Common Core is a more significant policy issue than even the Flexibility Waivers that states are currently applying for as related to No Child Left Behind?
Yes, because I don’t think you can actually do the next generation of accountability systems that are anticipated by the [Elementary and Secondary Education Act] Flexibility, without the Common Core to animate them.
Can you think of some practical ways and avenues that you might suggest for teachers to understand, influence and implement policies like these in our school districts at the local level? How do we make policy less abstract and how do we understand it, influence it and implement it?
Be a building rep for your union, be on your building faculty senate or building committee, partner with people in the central office so that you are a practitioner [figuring out] the difficult problems of execution with administrators, because just like teachers don’t want reform to be done to them, they want it to be done with them, administrators want policy implementation to be done with them, not policy implementation arguments done to them. And we should assume that no one wants to be part of that kind of loud argument.
And don’t hesitate to use those opportunities to be building reps and union leaders and district leaders as vehicles for career advancement. The ambitions of teachers to be successful and efficacious are the things that actually animate the best things about their career. And we should always be encouraging teachers to act on those aspirations.
So even in those particular roles, if those conversations aren’t happening, [should we] begin them?
Begin them, encourage them to come, and then also ask… we’ve talked about this now two or three times, ask ‘what is going on in the minds of the other people in this dialogue that would lead it to be successful or unsuccessful? And how can I take into account their motives and my motives so we’re not adversaries but we’re solving the same problem?’
And that, I think, the idea that we’re working together to solve common problems, is the beginning of almost all progress.
That’s a perfect segway for the last two pieces [of this interview]. It sounds like collaboration and [the conditions that are] required for collaboration to take root.
I read a really great interview that you did with Education Sector in April of 2006, the year following the successful funding and implementation of ProComp initiative in the Denver Public Schools. At one point, you said: I don’t really think there was a secret ingredient other than people being able to move past their doubts and seize an opportunity. It was a chance to create opportunities where the rewards outweighed the risks. I don’t think we do that much in public education.
What can we do, as teachers and as members of our teachers union, to make this happen more often in general? Or even more specifically, here in the Boston Public Schools?
In a sentence, navigate towards your best hopes and away from your worst fears.
Too much of the adversarial discourse in public education is discourse buttressed by worst fears. ‘What if the worst principal in the world were in charge of that school?’ We need a rule to protect all teachers against the possibility of the worst principal in the world.
It’s the wrong way to be organized. [We] should be organizing instead on ‘how do we get the best principal in the world in as many schools as we’ve got? That means that we’re going to need really great incentive packages for principals, and by golly they might need to be paid more than teachers and as maybe as a teacher union leader, I need to advocate that we accelerate the pay for high school principals so that the working conditions in my high schools get better.
It’s a simple example, but if you begin to think like that, then you can begin to proliferate other examples.
So is it up to the individual teachers in our buildings as building reps, as partners with district officials, to talk and frame the conversation in that way? Because sometimes a lot of the rhetoric out there is very negative, as you’re probably already aware.. how do we break through that?
I think the most important thing that teacher leaders can do is to say, ‘But wait. There are some benefits here. But wait. What are the right, prudent ways to protect against the fair things that are being raised by the people who are afraid against worst hopes?’
We didn’t say, when we negotiated ProComp, ‘let’s embrace the arbitrary and capricious.’ We said instead, ‘let’s embrace the reasonable, the consistent, the credible…’ and then we said, ‘let’s make sure we’re protecting against the arbitrary and capricious by embracing [the] reasonable and consistent and credible.’ We never said anything about getting it all right. We always said though, we want to keep our antennae up and avoid treating people badly. And what’s more, we made a commitment to use data as a way to inform our future decisions so that we were not being arbitrary and capricious.
And when you say ‘we,’ you mean… as teachers or as the collaborative team?
Labor and management, the collaborative team. Absolutely.
What was the structure of that team?
There were a number of different shared decision-making bodies. One, the design team that led the pay-for-performance pilot, was two teachers and two administrators who managed the implementation of a difficult project. Another, the joint salary task force, was five teachers, three principals and two central officers who managed the policy development for the pay system. And there were other collaborative bodies as well. There were management teams, there were executive teams, and at all levels, we made sure that there were good problem solving ethics and a high degree of pragmatic practice, guiding the way we did our work.
We didn’t negotiate much, we problem solved a whole lot.
But were those particular task forces borne of negotiations? Was there a deliberate decision to create those collaborative groups?
So this is really important, James.
All of those bodies were borne from their need, not from the preconceived agreement and in fact, one of the hallmarks of the early pay-for-performance pilot was that we adapted the design team away from what it was originally agreed to do into something very different.
And we didn’t reopen the labor agreement to do it.
I’m a strong believer that pre-textual power sharing agreements only go so far. And most labor agreements, especially most agreements to collaborate, are just pre-textual power sharing agreements. What I care more about is not the power sharing, but the outcomes. Power sharing to no outcome is useless; it just makes people comfortable.
What we did in the period of time from the beginning of the pay-for-performance pilot through the successful election in ProComp was to create problem-solving tables in which the problem that needed to be solved trumped the power-sharing relationship, at any moment.
That was just the tacit understanding? That was the agreement from the people at the table and how they communicated?
At the risk of making it sound mystical, because it wasn’t, it was the culture that we led together. And it was the way that we framed the problem. And I don’t want to make it sound like there were human variables or like I was one of them because I don’t think either of those things are totally true. But between 2006 and 2009 when the leadership of the union and the school district became more adversarial over ProComp, it was often because they couldn’t… they didn’t cultivate that kind of culture in their discussions. And instead what they did is they rooted themselves more deeply in the need to share power as a way to solve problems. And you know, it’s pretty obvious that they didn’t solve their problems and they didn’t share their power.
That’s going to be a fun quote for the people in Denver. (laughing)
Any final advice on how to best reach out to each other as teachers to get behind a system or a particular professional approach where ‘the rewards outweigh the risks?’ I mean you talked about how to get involved, of going towards your best hopes versus your worst fears [and] the specific roles you can do.. Anything else you’d like to offer to say ‘here’s how we should be organizing and thinking as teachers?’
Final thought here. I say this a lot when I’m working with people that view unions as an inscrutable other, such as [those in] reform organizations or people training to be superintendents.
I say, ‘when was the last time that you changed your mind because someone sat across the table and demanded that you did so?’ And these ambitious and highly interested individuals pause for a minute and remind themselves that it’s a point of pride to not be coerced into changing their minds. And I remind them that that’s the way that any right thinking teacher or union leader would think. But for us as teachers to presume that we’re going to bend somebody’s will or policy orientation by sitting across the table and demanding that they do so is just as foolhardy.
What we really have to do is realize that we’re not going to change the graduation rates in this country, we’re not going to change the proficiency and exit rates in this country, by demanding that somebody else change their mind. We need to be responsible not only for our minds and its change but for engaging the minds of people with whom we work, so that we’re all solving the problem together.

Brad Jupp Reflects
And you don’t learn that skill [any] better than you do than when you’re teaching. So I think teachers are in the right position to take up the lead in the next generation of reform. But they’re going to have to go back to their roots in the classroom, where they get 4th graders to learn how to multiply fractions, or where they get 6th graders to read Ezra Pound’s The Seafarer. Those are the things that are the hard, right things that we’re best at and we should go about solving education reform matters using the same skills.
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There are certainly a lot of compelling ideas here. Do you agree with the points raised in this conversation? In what ways can you imagine teachers here in the Boston Public Schools ‘taking up the lead’ in the dialogue and work of school improvement and reform?
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